|
|
|
Hi all. Just a little something here that I've been working on since Nigedo proposed the idea to me. Should've been up a while ago, but my computer has been conspiring against me and as a result everything but the notes I had taken when I first started were lost. But tht gave me a chance to start over and re-examine the ideas I had formed since beginning real work. Anyway.
Thanks in writing this go to Nigedo, for his help, support and questions, to Pozzo, Phil_t, Solin, Nazz, Striker and the many other loremasters here for their words I read, which gave me all sorts of ideas. I've tried my best to clean this up and make sure I've linked to all my references, but I can't say I have for sure.
---
The Temporal Myth
S13, v5: The temporal myth is man. [2nd Lesson of Ruling Kings]
S15, v10: The temporal myth is man. [Words to the Nerevarine about Dagoth Ur]
Both of these are used in Sermons that refer to the Sharmat and also to the Heart.
S26, v16: Vivec gave Seht leave to do so, but told him never to release The Pocket Cabal into the middle world. He said: 'I have hidden secrets in my travels here and made a likeness of Muatra to ward against the unwise. Under this dome, the temporal myth is no longer man.' [Fight with the fourth monster, the Pocket Cabal]
To which Aedra does the Pocket Cabal refer? (If anyone knows, I'd love to hear it.)
The dome is likely a reference to the Great Ghostfence, which (so I have heard) began as a dome and was later reduced to only a wall. Under that dome, the Heart could shape Mundus (is its axle, in fact, is the Wheel's axle, as pointed out in Nigedo's Introduction to the Wheel), making man no longer a temporal myth, but instead making him a god (or at least akin to a god). The likeness of Muatra is likely referring to the Ghostgate, the Towers of Dusk and Dawn. Half-dead Muatra's mock bones were used to create "the tent poles of a fortress-theory" (v14) in which "fatal languages were imprisoned for all time." (v14)
The Ghostfence (all ghostfences) is powered by bones; the Great Ghostfence by the remains of Dumner, the clan ghostfence by the knuckle-bone of a willing dead relative. (Ancestors and the Dunmer)
The tent poles must be in reference to the pylons of the Ghostfence, built to hold up a fortress-theory: a fortress that, in theory, would hold.
The fatal languages very likely refer to the lies of the Sharmat, and possibly to the enchantments Kagrenac placed on the Heart (the Dwemer are said to have used solid sounds in their enchantments, and spoken language is nothing but sounds). The Ghostfence was intended to seal the evils of Dagoth Ur in for all time, but it could not be maintained because the Tribunal grew weak enough and the Sharmat strong enough so that the Tribunal was unable to restore their powers at the Heart (never mind that Vivec has said that the Nerevarine would be the only one capable of truly stopping Dagoth Ur). Vivec's words take on a very temporal quality: "for all time" is a very difficult, practically impossible, concept for mortals to grasp, and most mortals are only concerned with their own time - anything beyond is at the end of time, so to speak. I think that Vehk does everything but come out and say that he, too is but a temporal myth, turned into something (however fleetingly) certain by the Heart.
He is also "a letter written in uncertainty." (S4, v11) He is afraid, either because he knows or does not know (but I think he does) what will happen, for himself but more for his children the Velothi. Later, in words directed towards the Nerevarine, "This magic I give to you: the world you will rule is only an intermittent hope and you must be the letter written in uncertainty." (S15, v12) The letter could also refer to the sigil CHIM. Vehk says, the sigil CHIM constantly distorts itself. Those scholars that can perceive its shape regard it as a Crowned Tower that threatens to break apart at the slightest break in concentration. (Vehk's Teaching, More on Psijic Endeavour) CHIM represents the Tower, and it represents the Ever-Now of the Dawn Age, both of which (I think they are the same) are where the gods are said to dwell.
"Intermittent hope" and "temporal myth" both have similar qualities of something intangible and fleeting. Does he refer to Mundus? I think yes (and more besides). An intermittent hope of peace and safety, populated by those who are bound to die and be forgotten (those who live in a myth are myths themselves, I would think).
Vehk has said, in his Book of Hours, "The center of the Wheel was another circle, the hub, which held everything together. The etada called this Mundus." (The Tower, v31) And "In fact, and here is the secret: the hub is the reflection of its creators, the circle within the circle, only the border to ours is so much easier to see." (v35, emphasis added) And Mannimarco, the God of Worms, has been quoted in Where Were You When the Dragon Broke as saying (emphasis added) "The Maruhkati Selectives showed us all the glories of the Dawn so that we might learn, simply: as above, so below."
The Hub, Mundus, is a reflection of its creators. As above in the Aurbis, so below in the Mundus. Because things change in Mundus, they must also necessarily change in all the Wheel. Because things die in Mundus, they must also die in all the Wheel. If the Temporal Myth is man, then the Temporal Myth must also be something which lives in Aurbis. And if the center can not hold, then neither can that of which it is a reflection. Maybe the Temporal Myth is Aurbis.
---
Right, then. Questions? Comments? Criticisms which may be nasty or nice or maybe both?
Post Extras:
|
|
Nigedo
|
|
Diviner
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 05/29/03
|
|
Posts: 2594
|
|
Loc: Deep beneath Vvardenfell
|
|
|
I am really pleased that you decided to write this paper, Vireyar. 
I like the original parallel you've drawn between the prison for the Pocket Cabal and the Ghostgate. That is something I have never considered myself. Certainly the method of using Muatra's "mock bones" to create a field barrier is consistent with the principles that underly Dunmeri ghostfences. Good work. 
Quote:
"Intermittent hope" and "temporal myth" both have similar qualities of something intangible and fleeting. Does he refer to Mundus? I think yes (and more besides). An intermittent hope of peace and safety, populated by those who are bound to die and be forgotten (those who live in a myth are myths themselves, I would think).
Here I think you are starting to touch upon the real mystery of the Temporal Myth. You go further in your closing comments;
Quote:
Because things change in Mundus, they must also necessarily change in all the Wheel. Because things die in Mundus, they must also die in all the Wheel. If the Temporal Myth is man, then the Temporal Myth must also be something which lives in Aurbis.
This is particularly insightful and, I believe, the most important new ground you have begun to cover.
The value of understanding the impact of mortality upon the Wheel cannot be overestimated in my opinion. I see in this a principle that has been hugely neglected in study until now - one that touches upon the motivations of mortals and immortals alike, be they Aedra or Daedra.
For this reason, I would like to encourage you to look much more closely at this area of the Temporal Myth and consider its deeper, possible implications.
From Sermon 13;
"The temporal myth is man.
The magical cross is an integration of the worth of mortals at the expense of their spirits."
--------------------
Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ
Post Extras:
|
|
Susano
|
|
Adept
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 04/22/03
|
|
Posts: 207
|
|
|
|
|
Some interesting points.... food for the mind. Very well thought out, too However, you allow me if I disagree with some of it? Heh, I have come to other intepretations, but maybe it is me who is wrong....
Temporal myth... hm... I think it is a reference to Mundus, as the other planes to not know linear time (or do they?). The temporal myth is such the myth of mundus.
The Myth of Aetherius are the Aedra, the Myth of Oblvion are the Daedra - and the Myth of Mundus, the temporal myth, is man.
This also fits to "As below, so above". A mirror reflects what you see, but the sides are reversed.
So, looking from Munuds, Aedra and Daedra are myths. Looking form Aurbis, men are myths.
Now, lets look where this sentence is used.
In Lesson Thirteen Lod Vehk he explains mythical cosmology to the Hortator.
Quote:
The temporal myth is man.
The magical cross is an integration of the worth of mortals at the expense of their spirits.
(v5-7)
The magical cross is - Vivec. Or rather, Vivec as aspect of ALMSIVI.
V15:
Quote:
The sword is the cross and ALMSIVI is the Triune house around it.
v18:
Quote:
I am the sword, Ayem the star, Seht the mechanism that allows the transformation of the world. Ours is the duty to keep the compromise from being filled with black sea.
Magical I think does not only mean strictly magical, but generalyl spirtual. Of course, an apotheosis is a spirtual ascension. That is what is meant with "integration of the worth of mortals". Assuming we speak fo a mathematical integration here. The worth mortals would be a graph, rising and falling at times. The integration would be the whole area covered by the graph, though.
In an apotheosis, through worship or through other means, not the current state, but your _whole_ spiritual achievements count, I would say.
And of course the apotheosis costs individuality, so it is at expense of the mortal spirit.
So, I think what Lord Vehk describes here is first man, and than the native gods that once were men, ALMSIVI (and then he goes on to the Deadra and other things) - a logical stucture, I would say.
The second time it is used in Sermon Fifteen.
Quote:
The temporal myth is man.
Reach heaven by violence.
This magic I give to you: the world you will rule is only an intermittent hope and you must be the letter written in uncertainty.'
(v10-12)
I think it prophecies the rise, and probably even the apotheosis of the Neravarine who will come. The advise is directe dnot at Nerevar, but the coming Nerevarine.
He will start as man, temporal myth, and reach godhodo the same way Lord Vehk did, by bending/breaking the natural laws (that is, by vioelnce).
However, godhood is not what it seems to be, it is not only about power, so Lord Vehk gives advise, knowledge to the Nerevarine. Knowledge that certainly IS magic, if seen on a divine level.
Which leads to the "intermittent hope" and the "uncertain letter".
Intermiddent of course is a very relative term for a god. The ALMSIVI had "acess" to the non-linear time of Aurbis - so what is time, and temporal terms like intermittent to them? They only count on a VERY large scale.
And on such a scale, Mundus IS an intermittent hope. Remember, it was created as a purposely failed attempt to reach chim, to be an easier path to chim itself.
Reaching chim would is the hope munuds represents, afterwards, Mundus has no use anymore - thus it is intermittnt, an intermittent hope to be exact.
This is also the reason why the centre, Munuds, cannot hold - it was never designed to hold.
However, this means godhood is indeed not like what it must seem to mortals. It is not simply that you hold power in mundus - you also get insight. And this insight tells you, that power is very much ireelevant, seeing that the world, mundus, is just a stage to reach chim.
What this means is that the god(-king)s do not rule directly, but through mystries, temples, faiths - all are indeed shrouded knowlegde - letters in uncertainity. Because power over a stage of transformation is not as important as some other spirtual concepts, once you think large scale enough - which gods certainly do. And those spirtual concepts are indeed uncertain, at least to mortals, I cannot judge if the same applies to gods. So this is Lord Vehks advise to the Hortator: Honour this uncertainity, which is more important than power over a temporal contruct.
And of course this is what he says about himself, and it fits: ALMSIVI has the temple, but they are not exactyl the dictators of Morrowind.
Which leaves, as finally last point, Sermon Twenty-Six.
Now, it was always my impression that the monsters did in fact represent concepts, theories. And those are fought with other concepts and theories. The fight bewteen Lord Vehk and the Pocket Cabal is no fight of swords, but a spirtual fight of concepts.
The Pocket Cabal would represent heresy, ancient/forbidden knowledge, etc etc... all that was people would associate with that. It is a concept all in all.
Lord Vehk fights it by containing it, and the way he contains it does indeed so closely resemble the ghostfence that I agree that this no coincidence.
However, notice he uses mock bones and fortress theories. Concepts are ought with concepts, and thus also contained by cocnepts. Also, remember that architecture is something depply mystical and spoirtually, too, among the Dunmer.
So what Lord Vehk built in that Sermon is the spirtual aspect of the ghostfence fortress, the how-to so to say.
--------------------
Serving honourably in House Redoran
Post Extras:
|
|
SeveredSin
|
|
Curate
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 02/20/03
|
|
Posts: 502
|
|
Loc: MI, USA
|
|
|
wow 
--------------------
Member of Tenth Era Total conversion
http://www.massiveorange.com/tenthera/index.htm
Post Extras:
|
|
|
|
Some interesting points.... food for the mind. Very well thought out, too
Thank you.
However, you allow me if I disagree with some of it?
Not at all. Disagreement brings about discussion, which is a good thing.
Heh, I have come to other intepretations, but maybe it is me who is wrong....
The Sermons are open to many interpretations, I think. I'd say that the only wrong ones are the the horribly silly, like that the Temporal Myth is the sandwich I had for lunch today.
A mirror reflects what you see, but the sides are reversed.
So, looking from Munuds, Aedra and Daedra are myths. Looking form Aurbis, men are myths.
Ah, good point. I raise my right hand, but in the mirror I raise my left.
Magical I think does not only mean strictly magical, but generalyl spirtual.
Perhaps it could refer to Vivec's transformation at the Heart, which had an enchantment placed on it.
Assuming we speak fo a mathematical integration here. The worth mortals would be a graph, rising and falling at times.
Interesting. What would their worth equate to? The worship they give to the gods/higher spirits?
And of course the apotheosis costs individuality, so it is at expense of the mortal spirit.
The mortal spirit, yes. But as Vehk says in The Tower, v5, Imagine being able to feel with all of your senses the relentless alien terror that is God and your place in it, which is everywhere and therefore nowhere, and realizing that it means the total dissolution of your individuality into boundless being. Imagine that and then still being able to say 'I'. The 'I' is the Tower. The Tower, or rather the secret inside, is (I believe) generally held to represent godhood. Vivec's entry into the Tower and stealing the Tower's secret (he calls himself the Thief, after all) cost him his mortal spirit, but not his individuality. He might have stepped into the god place, where everything is happening at once, but he can still say "I am Vivec".
I think it prophecies the rise, and probably even the apotheosis of the Neravarine who will come. The advise is directe dnot at Nerevar, but the coming Nerevarine.
I would agree with this. Karnath has seen some of this same sort of thing (in his paper The Number of the Master), and later in the thread I added my own observations on advice and words to the Nerevarine. Anyway, saying to the Nerevarine that (s)he must be the letter written in uncertainty does fit with Vivec saying that he is the letter written in uncertainty. I agree with what you say later: Honour this uncertainity, which is more important than power over a temporal contruct. I suppose it must refer to the guidance and protection of Morrowind. Vehk does pass that responsibility on to the Nerevarine near the end of the MQ.
Intermiddent of course is a very relative term for a god. The ALMSIVI had "acess" to the non-linear time of Aurbis - so what is time, and temporal terms like intermittent to them? They only count on a VERY large scale.
Yes, but ALMSIVI were mortals before. They probably found it very difficult, if not impossible, to let go of their conceptions of linear time. They may have had access to non-linear time, but their bodies still exist in Mundus, which is linear (barring the occasional Dragon Break). I think they realised what time was, and what it meant for them; I think they each secretly feared Azura's prophecy that her champion would return. It's easiest to see this in Almalexia; she has been driven mad by the loss of her powers, and seeks to establish herself back as a goddess (rather, the goddess) as quickly as possible. Then again, that might just be caused by her madness.
And on such a scale, Mundus IS an intermittent hope. Remember, it was created as a purposely failed attempt to reach chim, to be an easier path to chim itself.
True. But even though Mundus being a failed attempt at CHIM is certainly a very plausible explanation, Lorkhan still may have had his own secret reasons for doing what he did, which we aren't given to know. Perhaps he foresaw what would happen to him once the Aedra gave of themselves to create Mundus, and set things up a certain way so that one day, he could return to the Ever-Now. But that's just speculation.
And of course this is what he says about himself, and it fits: ALMSIVI has the temple, but they are not exactyl the dictators of Morrowind.
Some might disagree with you and mention the Ordinators, but as an Order watched over and run by mortals, it is open to corruption.
Now, it was always my impression that the monsters did in fact represent concepts, theories.
I would agree that this is true. I had heard somewhere that the eight monsters represented the eight Aedra, or at least what they represent. I've also heard that the monsters were the eight imperfections of Mundus (which may be another way of saying the same thing, I don't know).
Also, remember that architecture is something depply mystical and spoirtually, too, among the Dunmer.
That is a good point, yes. The peaks of building roofs are meant to remind us of the Tribunal, and were not meant to maybe perhaps make it so that rain falls off.
So what Lord Vehk built in that Sermon is the spirtual aspect of the ghostfence fortress, the how-to so to say.
Ah. I think I like this better than my own idea. Perhaps we are both right; we are dealing with a god, after all. But I would say that the spiritual aspect of the Great Ghostfence was already in place, on a smaller scale in the clan ghostfences. Of course, scale is very important to mortals.
Post Extras:
|
|
Solin
|
|
Initiate
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/03/03
|
|
Posts: 92
|
|
Loc: Overseeing the growth of Tel Kaerth at Bal Sadrith
|
|
|
I apologize for not commenting sooner. I felt inadequitly versed in the subject matter to respond in anyway but now I have some ideas.
Firstly, nice work, you have brought to the fore-front many ideas I've not heard of or considered. Thanks.
I'd like to propose some questions
The temporal myth is man.
I'm curious, what is your interperation of this phrase?
I may be off but as I see it, this:
Vivec gave Seht leave to do so, but told him never to release The Pocket Cabal into the middle world. He said: 'I have hidden secrets in my travels here and made a likeness of Muatra to ward against the unwise. Under this dome, the temporal myth is no longer man.'
and this:
Quote:
Because things change in Mundus, they must also necessarily change in all the Wheel. Because things die in Mundus, they must also die in all the Wheel. If the Temporal Myth is man, then the Temporal Myth must also be something which lives in Aurbis.
May be linked in some way. What is the meaning of the sermon? Twenty-six? Is the Ghostfence described in the sermon really the Ghostfence? What being that lives in "outside" the mortal plane can die? When? I do not know if this is all pertinant to the study but I would ask myself these questions.
I do not know what the monsters are but, if I were going to identify them with certain figures I'd look at the Aldmeri Panthenon and the "lying" et'ada.
I'm afraid I can't offer much for Nigedo's comment as that is something I'm looking at myself.
--------------------
"There’s man all over for you, blaming on his boots the faults of his feet." -Vladimir, in Waiting for Godot
Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec | Mnemoli's Gate
Edited by Solin (03/21/04 04:26 AM)
Post Extras:
|
|
|
|
I swear Nigedo, your post wasn't here last night.  Either I was far more tired than I thought, or else I went completely blind for the few seconds it took to scroll down the page. Anyway.
Good work.
Thank you.
The value of understanding the impact of mortality upon the Wheel cannot be overestimated in my opinion.
Mortality in general, or how different races feel about mortality (or both, or neither)?
I see in this a principle that has been hugely neglected in study until now - one that touches upon the motivations of mortals and immortals alike, be they Aedra or Daedra.
Motivations for avoiding, or trying to, the ever-advancing threat of time, for trying to stay current, so to speak?
As much as I want to respond more, there's too much there to think about that I can't answer (yet?).
Solin: I felt inadequitly versed in the subject matter to respond in anyway but now I have some ideas.
Which is exactly how I feel about the Hurling Disk  When trying to decide which topic to pursue, the only thing I could write down about that was ???
The temporal myth is man.
I'm curious, what is your interperation of this phrase?
Well, on a basic level, that men (which I take to mean mortals) live, and they die, and then they are either forgotten, or the tales of their lives change so much that the life they actually led is a myth because it is forgotten; the "popular" (for lack of a better term) version of their life is just as much a myth, maybe even moreso, because it didn't really happen that way. On a higher level, well, that will take an entire paper or two to explain.
What is the meaning of the sermon? Twenty-six?
So far as I can tell, it is Vivec's conquering of old ideas and lies (perhaps putting down Chimeri Daedra worship to raise up worship of the Tribunal) in the east of Morrowind, which I believe is Telvanni territory (supported by references to wizards and an abundance of Emperor Parasols). That is odd in and of itself, the Telvanni not having really ever taken to the Temple's teachings. He tried to destroy these lies, but the slaves (which I take to mean non-Chimer) continued speaking them - speaking out against the Tribunal, maybe. I could very well be wrong; as Seht says in the Sermon, Of the eight monsters, this is the most confusing.
Is the Ghostfence described in the sermon really the Ghostfence?
Perhaps not the Great Ghostfence, or even a clan ghostfence, but I do see parallels with what Vivec made in Sermon 26 and the Great Ghostfence. As Susano pointed out, Vehk may have just been laying out the spiritual concepts for the Ghostfence, a blueprint, so to speak.
What being that lives in "outside" the mortal plane can die? When?
Ostensibly, all of them, but we only have two specific mentions: Trinimac (eaten by Boethiah, and excreted out as Malacath) and more importantly, Lorkhan (see The Center that Cannot Hold Studies. Neither of them really died, not in the mortal sense of the word, but they definitely changed beyond recognition.
Post Extras:
|
|
Solin
|
|
Initiate
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/03/03
|
|
Posts: 92
|
|
Loc: Overseeing the growth of Tel Kaerth at Bal Sadrith
|
|
|
Quote:
Which is exactly how I feel about the Hurling Disk When trying to decide which topic to pursue, the only thing I could write down about that was ???
I must admit I stumbled onto it through Nazz's post but seventeen days ago. Funny thing is the interpretation that lead me to it isn't one I would consider as being entirely sound based in the context.
Quote:
Well, on a basic level, that men (which I take to mean mortals)
Ahh, that's what I thought. I just wanted to be sure I was on the right page as everyone else.
As a point of clairification, when I said "Twenty-six?" I meant it as something seperate than the actual sermon.
After considering it for a bit I think I could see Ha-Note (See sermon thirty) as Trinimac so I guess that the eight monsters might be figures in elven panthenon.
Hmm... I think that Vehk is battling the ideals and ways of the when he fights the eight monsters, which could be identified by figures from Ald/Altmeri lore and religion. I think they might have a hand in this "Mortal Myth" but that's just my theory.
--------------------
"There’s man all over for you, blaming on his boots the faults of his feet." -Vladimir, in Waiting for Godot
Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec | Mnemoli's Gate
Post Extras:
|
|
|
|
As a point of clairification, when I said "Twenty-six?" I meant it as something seperate than the actual sermon.
Oops. I have no answer to this, then. I would say the Voids and the Spokes, but they only number twenty-four (the Voids and the Spokes and the moons, the two halves of Lorkhan's sundered body? likely not). Numerology (numbers in general, really) was never quite my strong suit. Also, somewhat on the topic of twenty-six, Sermon 29 seems to title Sermon 26 as "The Rogue Plane". My first guess would be that it might have something to do with Mnemoli, but I'll be damned if I know how.
I think they might have a hand in this "Mortal Myth" but that's just my theory.
I agree with this, but moreso, I think they might be a part of the Myth.
Post Extras:
|
|
Solin
|
|
Initiate
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 09/03/03
|
|
Posts: 92
|
|
Loc: Overseeing the growth of Tel Kaerth at Bal Sadrith
|
|
|
Hehe, I'm always messing up with the numbers. I must have been almost, if not, told three times and still missed it.
Quote:
Also, somewhat on the topic of twenty-six, Sermon 29 seems to title Sermon 26 as "The Rogue Plane". My first guess would be that it might have something to do with Mnemoli, but I'll be damned if I know how.
I think so too, if not that then something related. Not sure what it is yet but I think the sermon might be describing it... not that it is not describing the Ghostfence... it may be only describing the Ghostfence.
--------------------
"There’s man all over for you, blaming on his boots the faults of his feet." -Vladimir, in Waiting for Godot
Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec | Mnemoli's Gate
Post Extras:
|
|
Susano
|
|
Adept
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 04/22/03
|
|
Posts: 207
|
|
|
|
|
26=2x13, the womb, OR 2+6=8, number of the aedra, or in sermon 29, "The Drowned Lamp". Which reminds me to finish my studies about the subject fo numerology, heh.
I wanted to comment some comments here, but, ah, Ill do so tomorrow.
--------------------
Serving honourably in House Redoran
Post Extras:
|
|
|
|
26=2x13, the womb, OR 2+6=8, number of the aedra, or in sermon 29, "The Drowned Lamp".
Interesting thoughts. I don't understand what you mean by "the womb", though. Could you explain that, please?
Which reminds me to finish my studies about the subject fo numerology, heh.
Yes, please do!
Now, some further thinking I have done, prompted by some questions by Nigedo:
The Altmer and Nord peoples seem to be the most representative of man and mer in their views on mortality and the divine.
The Altmer resent their mortality; they see the creation of Mundus as being severed from the divine (as do all mer, except the Dunmer (The Monomyth) - more on them in a bit). They call the Aedra their ancestors, supposedly evidence of the fact that they were once divine.
The Nords, on the other hand, seem to embrace their mortality; they have a cheerfulness in battle, seemingly not caring whether or not they die, and for good reason: they believe in Sovngarde, the "Hall of Valour", where a warrior goes if (s)he dies bravely in honourable battle (it is also, I believe, one of the few, if only, references to an afterlife). For what it is, it's a very nice place to go if you're a Nord, with eternal feasting, drinking and tests of strength and skill. In Sovngarde, Shor welcomes Nords as brothers. (This raises a question: are there different methods of acheiving the Tower, so to speak?)
They also believe they once lived as long as Elves until Orkey appeared; through heathen trickery, he fooled them into a bargain that 'bound them to the count of winters'. At one time, legends say, Nords only had a lifespan of six years due to Orkey's foul magic. Shor showed up, though, and, through unknown means, removed the curse, throwing most of it onto the nearby Orcs. (Skyrim Gods)
Orkey appeared in the Nordic pantheon during Aldmeri rule of Atmora - Orkey is described as an enemy god. Interesting that he came about when the elves ruled the men. He was said to have reduced every Nord to a lifespan of six years, at one point. However, Wulfharth learned a thu'um, What Happens When You Shake the Dragon Just So, during the battle between Shor and Alduin (also known as Lorkhan and Akatosh), and uses it to restore the lost lifespans of the Nords. As B said, Wulfharth had learned to maniputate [sic] time. What's even more amazing, is that, even though King Wulfharth died in the process, he was later remade by Shor.
It would seem the Nords have no great love for the Aedra - nearly every Aedric god of their pantheon either replaced his predecessor (Stendarr replaced Stuhn, Julianos replaced Jhunal), or is not viewed in a terribly favourable light (Alduin World-Eater, aka Akatosh, aka Auri-el, King of the Aldmer, who destroys worlds to create new ones, only to destroy those and continue in this cycle; this is a bit reminiscent of the cycles of Satakal (see The Monomyth)).
What does this mean, Altmer and Nord taken together? Altmer see the divine as something with which they must rejoin, Nords see it (with the exception of Shor) as something almost alien. Shor helps men to realise that there is something else - in the Battle at Red Mountain, Wulfharth said: "Don't you see where you really are? Don't you know who Shor really is? Don't you know what this war is?" And they looked from the King to the God to the Devils and Orcs, and some knew, really knew, and they are the ones that stayed.
The ones that knew, they knew that they were in the presence of a powerful divine spark, the one which they knew they were destined to acheive. They knew that they could all have the heart of a god, because each of them would be a god (at least, it would seem so to their mortal eyes).
Lorkhan who is Shor - it was he who is said to have severed the elves from the divine, to have created men, his favoured children. He is known as the Creator, the Trickster, the Tester. He created the mortal world, he tricked the Aedra into giving of themselves to create it, he tests men (and probably mer).
So what about the Elven Lie?
It is that mer were separated from divinity when they were created on Mundus. They were never separated. They never co-existed with the divine. Their desire to rejoin with the divine is fundamentally flawed: They were wrong-headed nearly from the start. (The Road to Cyrodiil, v15) The Psijic Order is obsessed with a kind of mythic genealogy - obsessed with the fact that they were once co-existing with the gods, when they were on equal terms. The Psijic Endeavour has it right, I think. They know what Mundus is: a way of acheiving the Tower, and that is what they are seeking to do.
What about the Dunmer, who do not view Lorkhan in such an unfavourable light? Well, as Vehk said, when he tapped the power of the Heart, the Dragon Broke and a new worldline was created wherein he, Almalexia and Sotha Sil had always existed as gods (giving birth to his own father, one might say). Vehk and Ayem and Seht had always existed, and so the Dunmer were not (and never were, just like the other elves) separated from the divine - their gods had always walked with them in Morrowind.
And the Magical Cross?
The temporal myth is man.
The magical cross is an integration of the worth of mortals at the expense of their spirits. (S5, v5-6)
At the magical cross, the intersection of the Heart (the Wheel's axle) and the Wheel, in Mundus, mortals have worth, because they are at the heart of all creation. They are at the centre. It is at the expense of their spirits because the Aedra and the Daedra are vying for control of mortals. The worship that the Aedra and Daedra receive detracts from what the purpose of Mundus (may be) is - a way to ascend and acheive CHIM, a way to become like gods. Man and mer have something that Aedra and Daedra do not: potential. The Aedra and Daedra have their boundaries, but mortals do not.
Post Extras:
|
|
Susano
|
|
Adept
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 04/22/03
|
|
Posts: 207
|
|
|
|
|
Sermon 29: 13 is the number of the womb, this I meant.
And damn, I mist admit I am too apathetic for my own good... yeah *opens sermon 29*...
Good research though. Interesetingly, I agree on alll points.
Also, some more points,f rom your second post:
Quote:
Interesting. What would their worth equate to? The worship they give to the gods/higher spirits?
You ask a heavy question here! I mean, isnt that the purpose of all religions, to advise their followers what to do, which astion has the highest worth?
Quote:
The mortal spirit, yes. But as Vehk says in The Tower, v5, Imagine being able to feel with all of your senses the relentless alien terror that is God and your place in it, which is everywhere and therefore nowhere, and realizing that it means the total dissolution of your individuality into boundless being. Imagine that and then still being able to say 'I'. The 'I' is the Tower. The Tower, or rather the secret inside, is (I believe) generally held to represent godhood. Vivec's entry into the Tower and stealing the Tower's secret (he calls himself the Thief, after all) cost him his mortal spirit, but not his individuality. He might have stepped into the god place, where everything is happening at once, but he can still say "I am Vivec".
Well, yes, yorue right, that is maybe better than my concept. Still, there is a reason Vivec uses his godhood as example for the tower. The tower means being able to say "I am" EVEN when being god. Thus we can conclude it must be somewhat hard for gods to say so.
Still, in the end you are probably right.
Quote:
Yes, but ALMSIVI were mortals before. They probably found it very difficult, if not impossible, to let go of their conceptions of linear time. They may have had access to non-linear time, but their bodies still exist in Mundus, which is linear (barring the occasional Dragon Break). I think they realised what time was, and what it meant for them; I think they each secretly feared Azura's prophecy that her champion would return. It's easiest to see this in Almalexia; she has been driven mad by the loss of her powers, and seeks to establish herself back as a goddess (rather, the goddess) as quickly as possible. Then again, that might just be caused by her madness.
In a way there was no before, as the old timeline was replaced with one in which ALMSIVI were always gods.
Anyways, I see your point, I think - in this intepretation the wolrd would be an "intermittent hope" for the gods themselves? Hm, that seems to be too self-centered to be a tip to the Nerevarine... on the other hand, if we suppose an apotheosis of the Nerevarine, as indicated, then it would fit, as in: "You may become god, but it will never be forever".
Then the letter of uncertainity would also make sense in another respect: If a god loses his godhood, only his deeds remain - like gathered wisdoms and words.
Quote:
Some might disagree with you and mention the Ordinators, but as an Order watched over and run by mortals, it is open to corruption.
If almsivi were dictators, there would not be houses, or tribes, or anything else. Then Morrowind would have a monolothic government of the temple...
--------------------
Serving honourably in House Redoran
Post Extras:
|
|
|
|
Sermon 29: 13 is the number of the womb, this I meant.
Ah. If I'm not mistaken, the numbers after the "titles" are referring to a specific letter (or was it word? I think it's letter) in that Sermon. Get all of them and put them in the right order and you have Yet Another Secret Message. Someone did this, but I can't remember who or where or when. Interestingly, though, 13 is the number of the Serpent (and Sermon 13 mentions the Temporal Myth and the Magical Cross).
Still, there is a reason Vivec uses his godhood as example for the tower. The tower means being able to say "I am" EVEN when being god. Thus we can conclude it must be somewhat hard for gods to say so.
I would disagree about gods having difficulty saying so - only those who have acheived CHIM. From all evidence, Azura (for example) seems to have no difficulty discerning herself from Clavicus Vile, or Sheogorath, or Molag Bal.
In a way there was no before, as the old timeline was replaced with one in which ALMSIVI were always gods.
You are absolutely correct, of course. Bad mistake on my part (especially because I recognised in my latest post that the new timeline had always included the Tribunal as gods). Interestingly, this might mean that the Chimer had never been, and that the Dunmer always existed, depending on when Azura appeared - when Nerevar was murdered, or after the Tribunal used the Heart. But that's just speculation (though it would explain why Chimer had never been mentioned before TES 3).
Anyways, I see your point, I think - in this intepretation the wolrd would be an "intermittent hope" for the gods themselves?
Something like that. ALMSIVI envisioned their new world, and set about creating it, but they must have known that it could not last forever.
If almsivi were dictators, there would not be houses, or tribes, or anything else. Then Morrowind would have a monolothic government of the temple...
Again, you are right, but I would point out that the Temple wields a considerable amount of power in Morrowind. It was only because they allowed it that Vvardenfell was opened for colonisation, after all.
Post Extras:
|
|
|
|
The Tower is not godhood... some mortals have achieved it, many gods have not.
What makes you think daedra have self-awareness? Ever been inside the mind of a daedra? You're guessing here, based on a daedra's simulation of mortal behavior when interacting with mortals.
Post Extras:
|
|
|
|
Hi all. Yes, I've been rather inactive, but from the looks of it, the majority of the lore forum has, too. Various problems with the internet and very painful wisdom teeth, plus I've sort of lost interest in Morrowind, and can't get into the lore like I used to. I have, however, decided to attempt to finish my study. I'll try to answer any comments on this last part if anyone has any (besides "why did you bring up this old topic?", to which my answer is "because I wanted to finish it"), but no promises - I've forgotten a lot. I'm hoping that this is as conclusive as one can get when studying the Sermons. So, here is the Temporal Myth, part 4, some of which you may recognise from another thread.
---
From Sermon 18 (emphasis added):
Vivec knew that his doubt made him the sword of the Triune and so he did not feel shame or fear. Instead, he explained and these are the words:
'Can a member of the Invisible Gate become so archaic that its successor is not so much an improvement of the exact model, but rather a related model that is just needed more because of the currency of the world's condition?
As the Mother, you do not have to worry, unless things in the future are so strange that even Seht cannot understand. Neither does the Executioner or the Fool, but I am neither.
These ideals are not going to change in nature, even though they may change in representation. But, even in the west, the Rainmaker vanishes. No one needs him anymore.
Can one oust the model not because the model is set according to an ideal but because it is tied to an ever-changing unconscious mortal agenda?
I would argue that while belief (or, perhaps more properly, need) is essential to the survival of a particular spirit, complete disbelief or un-needing does not destroy (in the sense of annihilation; every change is destructive) that for which is stands. Nazz went into this in his thread about the Marukhati Selectives. The old Aedra, with their elvish influence, ceased to exist, but the themes they represented remained the same. They weren't necessarily an improvement over the Aedra of the Aldmeri, but they were more needed because Men were gaining dominion over Mer. As mafafu said, It may be that there is not much in the way of identity for the Earth-bones, but merely a function or purpose. That is, Akatosh is time. If he is removed and replaced with another entity, then that entity has effectively become time, and is therefore now equivalent to what we used to call Akatosh.
I would agree - Vehk says of the Tower: Imagine being able to feel with all of your senses the relentless alien terror that is God and your place in it, which is everywhere and therefore nowhere, and realizing that it means the total dissolution of your individuality into boundless being. Imagine that and then still being able to say "I". The "I" is the Tower.
Vehk mentions something akin to this in his Book of the Last Hour: I was then the Thief of the world, and my charges were three (and that being a very significant number to me), one of which was the Tower. And it was of the Tower that my emperor wanted to hear. He was dying and I loved him yet. He, too, was a Master and so I knew that he realized just how big a realm that the Tower encompassed. I am sure that when I meet the Warrior and Arctus again, they will have brought similar burdens. My guesses are the Lord and Ritual, but I do not know and would be delighted to be wrong.
This seems more related to cosmology, but mortals perceive the Earth Bones to be planets, and each Guardian constellation has, as its eye, a planet.
As for the "ever-changing unconscious mortal agenda" - perhaps it was because of this agenda that the Selectives danced on the Tower, in unknowing anticipation of the rise in the Empire of Men. Vivec seems to fear that this agenda will render him un-needed, and also seems to imply that the so-called gods can do nothing about it - otherwise it would be nothing to fear, because they could make mortals need them.
Excerpts from Sermon 11: According to the Codes of Mephala there can be no official art, only fixation points of complexity that will erase from the awe of the people given enough time. This is a secret that hides another. (S11, v11) All motifs can be mortally wounded. Once slain, themes turn into the structure of future nostalgia. (S11, v4) There is no bone that cannot be broken, except for the heart bone. (S11, v8)
Does the transformation of Trinimac into Malacath follow the same vein? Was Malacath more needed, perhaps by the Orsimer, perhaps by the Chimer? Perhaps even by the Nords - Ysmir is said to have had legendary battles with Malacath. And we all know who Ysmir is, or is at least a part or extension of.
And so here now, I think I can answer what the Temporal Myth is, and why it is. The Temporal Myth, besides being man (because Mundus is the reflection of Aurbis, and hence if there exists a Temporal Myth in Mundus there must also exist one in Aurbis), is that which man perceives to be the gods. That which is divine is really nothing more than a theme that endures because it is necessary to mortals for that theme to endure. Once mortals no longer have the need for that theme to exist, it either changes or is forgotten.
Post Extras:
|
|
EarlJ
|
|
Novice
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 12/17/03
|
|
Posts: 12
|
|
|
|
|
Anu and Padomay were born in the Great Darkness. They birthed children, and were swept back into the Great Darkness. The Aedra and Daedra are concepts that were strong enough not to become nothing again. Yet only the Great Darkness is enduring. This is the fear. I don't think the gods would ever actually be consumed like that, but the idea of not-being would certainly motivate me.
The reflection implies an impermanence in the gods themselves. The creation of the Mundus offers the possibility of others to achieve the Tower, so as the gods find themselves drawn inexorably into the Great Darkness from which Anu and Padomay were born, the Mundus -- instable and imperfect as it is -- can produce another god to take their place.
The Wheel turns so that it might continue to turn. It's not meant to be permanent in the sense that it is whole and complete. It's permanent in the sense that it is self-sustaining.
Post Extras:
|
|
TSBasilisk
|
|
Diviner
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 06/09/03
|
|
Posts: 2902
|
|
Loc: Durango, CO
|
|
|
But there are certain forces within the Wheel which yearn for the Great Darkness more than they do for existence. Sheogorath, Mehrunes Dagon, and certain others have no thought to preserve themselves; they seek only what they can have now. Were it up to them, they would tear apart Mundus and return to the Darkness, to Sithis, because they are the closest to him.
--------------------
Member of the Forum Scholars Guild
Member of Greater Dwemer Ruins, Modder in charge of Nchuleft
Post Extras:
|
|
Nigedo
|
|
Diviner
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 05/29/03
|
|
Posts: 2594
|
|
Loc: Deep beneath Vvardenfell
|
|
|
This is an interesting and unexpected (unexpected by me) turn in your analysis of the Temporal Myth, Vireyar, which strongly relates to the research topic I proposed some time ago on 'The Invisible Gate: ALMSIVI and beyond'.
I think that there is certainly merit in drawing these parallels between the temporal nature of mortals and the uncertainty that their 'changing need' imparts to the mythic importance of divinities.
The Mundus appears to re-infect the whole Universe with its transience, giving foundation to the worst fears of the Aedra; "Mundus was the House of Sithis." The Aedra being intrinsically linked to the Wheel structure of the Universe, and its hub, are in some way bound by the fates of the mortals they created (see the Redguard creation myth for more on this). There is definitely more at stake in this Arena Mundus than just theatrical entertainment for immortals.
I think there is more to say about the Temporal Myth as it relates to, what Kier-Jo once called, "the Elven Lie that all men believe". You have presented some thought provoking analysis here, though, and a fresh perspective on the riddle of how the relationship between mortal and immortal truly works.
Good work and sorry to hear about your wisdom teeth, I hope you're feeling better now.
Edit: Re-reading your posts above, I see that you began to delve into the Elven Lie and the 'magical cross';
"At the magical cross, the intersection of the Heart (the Wheel's axle) and the Wheel, in Mundus, mortals have worth, because they are at the heart of all creation. They are at the centre. It is at the expense of their spirits because the Aedra and the Daedra are vying for control of mortals.
The worship that the Aedra and Daedra receive detracts from what the purpose of Mundus (may be) is - a way to ascend and acheive CHIM, a way to become like gods. Man and mer have something that Aedra and Daedra do not: potential. The Aedra and Daedra have their boundaries, but mortals do not. "
This is excellent work (which I seem to have missed at the time.  ) Here, you have squarely addressed the stake that immortals, the 'Aedra', have in the lives of mortals and begun to shed light on why Vehk regards them as "liars" (sermon 21).
--------------------
Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ
Post Extras:
|
|
Dumbkid
|
|
Initiate
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 08/11/04
|
|
Posts: 68
|
|
|
|
|
Perhaps "the temporal man is myth" means that, essentially, it is a myth (or falsity) that man is temporal. Vivec may be implying that even mortal mer (and possibly men) may infact have an eternal aspect.
Consider that many creation myths have mer descended from Aedra. Different races view sees this in different ways, of course: The Altmer, for example, view it as being cast down from their proper places, whereas Dunmer believe they were set free.
Perhaps it a great trick of reality to fool mortals into thinking the end of their physical existence is truly an end of themselves (ES world, of course).
Post Extras:
|
|
Nigedo
|
|
Diviner
|
|
|
|
|
Reged: 05/29/03
|
|
Posts: 2594
|
|
Loc: Deep beneath Vvardenfell
|
|
|
There's just time, before these halls close their doors and new cloisters are opened to us, for me to welcome one more scholar to our fold.
Vireyar, you have shown a great deal of persistence and patience in your study of this difficult topic and I am very happy that you have decided to accept Fellowship in the Whirling School.
It is with great pleasure that I announce
the fellowship of Vireyar in
The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
in recognition of this well considered contribution made towards
a better understanding of the rational meaning of Vivec's teachings.
AE ANET CHIM
--------------------
Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ
Post Extras:
|
|
|
|
My impeccable sense of timing hasn't failed me this time, either A forum move within the next day or so.
Nigedo: This is an interesting and unexpected (unexpected by me) turn in your analysis of the Temporal Myth, Vireyar, which strongly relates to the research topic I proposed some time ago on 'The Invisible Gate: ALMSIVI and beyond'.
What direction, then, would have been more expected? (I'm guessing examining the Elven Lie more closely) I'll admit that this is a little tangential, yes. But it was about the only lead I could follow to anywhere (which maybe says something about my studies, since MK wove everything together so well).
Good work and sorry to hear about your wisdom teeth, I hope you're feeling better now.
Thank you and thank you I am feeling fine right now, thanks to antibiotics and prescription painkillers, but surgery is coming up in two weeks ...
Vireyar, you have shown a great deal of persistence and patience in your study of this difficult topic and I am very happy that you have decided to accept Fellowship in the Whirling School.
Thank you again. I wanted to wait until I felt that I had produced something of note. I'd like to continue the study, perhaps this (and a hint or two  ) will be an impetus to do so.
Dumbkid: Perhaps "the temporal man is myth" means that, essentially, it is a myth (or falsity) that man is temporal. Vivec may be implying that even mortal mer (and possibly men) may infact have an eternal aspect.
I do agree here. Have you read Vehk's teachings on the Psijic Endeavour? I think a lot of what he said regarding that, particularly the last two parts, pertains very directly to the Temporal Myth. I think the deeper implication of "the temporal myth is man" is that something in Aurbis is temporal, too, as the Hub is a reflection of the Wheel.
Consider that many creation myths have mer descended from Aedra. Different races view sees this in different ways, of course: The Altmer, for example, view it as being cast down from their proper places, whereas Dunmer believe they were set free.
Yes, they do. And for the most part, the creation myths are the same; they are the Monomyth (for what it's worth, I think that only the Dunmer and the Redguards have it right). And I think that this relates directly to the Elven Lie, which I take to be that the elves were not severed from the divine, with all the implications that has.
Perhaps it a great trick of reality to fool mortals into thinking the end of their physical existence is truly an end of themselves (ES world, of course).
I agree here, too. We pledge ourselves to you, the Frame-maker, the Scarab: a world for us to love you in, a cloak of dirt to cherish. (S10, v5)
'Take from me the lessons as a punishment for being mortal. To be made of dirt is to be treated as such by your jailers. This is the key and the lock of the Daedra. Why do you think they escaped the compromise?' (S32, v3-4)
From all indications that I have seen, the et'Ada (the so-called gods) have a vested interest in having mortals believe that death is the end to their being - but according to Vivec, our mortal body is only a cloak, something that can be removed without harming that which wears it.
Post Extras:
|
|
Previous
Index
Next
Flat
Threaded
The Temporal Myth
Edit
Reply
Quote
